Ironically, the evidence comes from the life of her. This directly contradicts the account in 2 Samuel 17. The Babylonian Talmud states that (emphasis ours): Bathsheba gave birth to Solomon when she was six, because a woman is stronger and can conceive at an earlier age. Cmon bro, dont get me wrong. There is no hint that the writer is a king whose authority is threatened by a formidable insurrection. [60] Wesleys Explanatory Notes also suggests this interpretation but is rather vague. Excuse me author but can you also respond to the claims that a sheep ate the Quran. a native of Giloh, was a privy councillor of David, whose wisdom was highly esteemed, though his name had an exactly opposite signification. I reccommend you telling him to respond to this video. [81] https://www.biblestudytools.com/encyclopedias/isbe/ahithophel.html, [82] https://www.biblestudytools.com/concordances/naves-topical-bible/eliam.html, [83] https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/eastons-bible-dictionary/eliam.html, [84] https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/ats/a/ahithophel.html. xxiii. The recorded events of Davids life after his misconduct with Bathsheba cannot have occupied less than about twenty years; that is, he cannot have been at the time older than about fifty years. hmm wasnt Bathsheba married before she was pregnant with Solomon and also didnt she also lose a child before giving birth to Solomon I mean come on abduls Was it not inspired? He hanged himself after realizing that the revolt would fail. WebAfter Uriah had been killed in the siege of Rabbah (2 Samuel 11:17), Bathsheba mourned Uriah, but then David took Bathsheba into his house and made her his wife, and she There is no reason to interpret the verse allegorically. And Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) knows best! The ancient Jewish tradition preserved by Jerome (Qu. Accession Number: 14.40.651. Father of Bathsheba, whose first husband was a Hittite, 1 Samuel 11:3 (= 1 Chronicles 3:5 , where Eliam is called Ammiel ). Rather, Ahithophel must be the close friend, since he was Davids counselor. He identified Ahithophel in the commentary on verse 12: Ahithophels perfidy and villany troubled David more than all the rest., [40] https://biblehub.com/commentaries/pulpit/psalms/55.htm, the general sentiment of commentators has always been that Ahithophel is intended. Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Psychologist Dr. Robert Epstein has made the controversial suggestion that young people, regardless of how young, should be allowed to make decisions about marriage and sex provided that they demonstrate that he or she knows about the risks of sexis physically and emotionally mature, and so on, an arbitrary age cutoff necessarily allows incompetent people to gain rights and privileges they probably shouldnt have., The norm that the ulama did come to consensus on was only a general guideline: they prohibited sexual intercourse for girls not able to undergo it, on the basis that otherwise sex could be physically harmful. Uriah the Hittite and Eliam, being both of the kings guard (consisting of 37 officers), were intimate, and Uriah married the daughter of his brother officer (https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/fbd/a/ahithophel.html). Other commentaries, such as those of Matthew Poole. In a previous article, I demonstrated that the Bible generally allowed marriage and sex at the onset of puberty (with the exception of Numbers 31:18 which seemingly allowed sex even before puberty). But this is not reasonable. Indeed, the account in 2 Samuel 1517 shows a man who was quite active, thereby suggesting that he was not an old man. My wife was Mrs Wallace, and still is. Yet, this objection is based on some flawed premises: why is it assumed that Ahithophel needed to be older than David? Why would the author of 2 Samuel have mentioned Eliam in passing on two different occasions and yet have meant them to be two different people and not clarify it, especially since Bathsheba was the daughter of one Eliam, whereas another Eliam was part of Davids elite military unit? Six times in one paragraph (vv. Oops, Im sorry, I thought you were Christian. Since this is now firmly established, we may ask what relevance it has in determining Bathshebas age at the time of her marriage to David. Most, though not all, of the evidence for the age of marriage comes from outside the Bible (i.e., from outside scripture), which some Christians ignore because it is not inspired. Rather, David laments being betrayed by: a man like myself, my companion, my close friend, with whom I enjoyed sweet fellowship[28]. However, that is not what I am claiming. According to the chronology of 2 Samuel 1315, two years had passed since Amnon had raped his half-sister Tamar (Absaloms sister), Thus, the Talmud sages did not left out the 4 years that went by between Absalom and Davids reconciliation and the beginning of Absaloms revolt. Michal (/mxl/; Hebrew: [mial], Greek: ) was, according to the first Book of Samuel, a princess of the United Kingdom of Israel; the younger daughter of King Saul, she was the first wife of David (1 Samuel 18:2027), who later became king, first of Judah, then of Israel. This verse is crucial. I believe that you have misunderstood my comment. 10 David was told, Uriah didnt go down to his own house, so David asked Uriah, Havent you just returned from a journey? And the claim that Allah is a moon God has been debunked many times. But the inference is really not a probable one. As Jonathan Brown explains: the medieval ulama considered the point at which a girl was fit for intercourse to be too varied to be firmly legislated for. Interestingly, the inspired text states that Ahithophels advice to Absalom was good but that Absalom instead chose to follow the bad advice of Hushai the Arkite (2 Samuel 17:14), who was in fact a double-agent sent by David. Also already taken care of. And the arabic word Makr is used meaning plan, not deceive. The Pulpit Commentary adds (emphasis ours): Of course, the statement is not intended for a universal law, and indeed was probably pointed especially at the bloody and deceitful men of whom the psalmist had been speaking. word was brought to him [David] that Ahithophel had gone over to the side of Absalom, [49] https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/eastons-bible-dictionary/ahithophel.html, brother of insipidity or impiety, a man greatly renowned for his sagacity among the Jews. He reigned for 40 years. Hushai the Arkite was the kings confidant. for so we find with David, king of Israel, who learned from Ahitophel no more than two things, yet called him his master, his guide and his beloved friend, as it is said, But it was you, a man mine equal, my guide and my beloved friend (Psalms 55:14)., [52] https://biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/55-23.htm, [53] https://biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/55-23.htm, [54] https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gill/psalms/55.htm, [55] https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/jtc/psalms-55.html#23, [56] https://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/psalms/55.htm, So we find, if there be an appointed time to man upon earth, beyond which he cannot pass; yet he may so live as to provoke the justice of God to cut him off before he arrives at that period; yea, before he has reached half way to that limit. The son of Ahithophel (2 Samuel 23:34)., [93] https://www.studylight.org/commentary/2-samuel/11-3.html, Bath-sheba, the daughter of Eliam or Ammiel (1 Chronicles 3:5), one of Davids worthies (2 Samuel 23:34), and son of Ahithophel., [94] https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/ckb/a/ahithophel.html, According to the Midrash, Ahithophel was Batshebas grandfather., [95] https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/fbd/p/pelonite.html, [96] https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/hbd/p/pelonite.html, [97] https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/hdb/p/pelonite.html, [98] https://www.studylight.org/encyclopedias/mse/p/pelonite.html, [105] http://m.qtafsir.com/Surah-An-Nisa/Giving-Back-the-Property-of-th, Tagged as: 2 Samuel, Absalom, Age of consent, Ahithophel, Bathsheba, Bible, Child Marriage, David, Eliam, Psalm 55, par excellence. The estimation of Bathshebas age is indeed based primarily on the interpretation of Psalm 55, and especially verse 23 (see objection #2 below). There is no doubt that, initially, many will go into denial-overdrive. And David sent and inquired about the woman. All which agrees to Achitophel., [47] https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/whe/psalms-55.html#13, From this rapid survey of the general calamity, David turns to the chief supporter of the rebellion, his former chief counsellor, Ahithophel. So says the Benson Commentary (emphasis ours): Not half so long as men ordinarily live, and as they, by the course of nature, might have lived, and as they themselves expected to live, but shall be cut off by Gods just judgment, by an untimely and violent death.[52]. Whenever I teach about the story of Davids sin against Bathsheba, I encourage my students to stand up for her. [] This was also based on the Prophets marriage to Aisha. See my videos here: I agree that Rebekah was not 3 years old. The answer comes from Psalm 55:23 (emphasis ours): But you, God, will bring down the wicked into the pit of decay; the bloodthirsty and deceitful will not live out half their days. This was also the conclusion of the classical Jewish sources, such as the Targums and the Talmud, as explained in Gills Exposition of the Entire Bible: But it was thou,. you have contributed so much great eye opening articles making Muslims and Christians aware of such controversial subjects. Actually, God had no problem with it. The traditional ascription to David cannot on any ground be maintained. You are committing a tu quoque fallacy!, an informal fallacy that intends to discredit the opponents argument by asserting the opponents failure to act consistently in accordance with its conclusion(s)., Thus, when Christians say that Muhammads (peace be upon him) marriage to Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) was immoral, and if Muslims were to respond by saying well, the Biblical figures married young girls too, so they are also immoral, that would be a tu quoque fallacy. Credit Line: Bequest of Benjamin Altman, 1913. Psychologist Dr. Robert Epstein has made the controversial suggestion that young people, regardless of how young, should be allowed to make decisions about marriage and sex provided that they demonstrate that he or she knows about the risks of sexis physically and emotionally mature, and so on[99] He also suggests that they should have to pass one or more appropriate competency tests. Why is it assumed that a 3040 years old Ahithophel could not have a granddaughter? [6] https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/smiths-bible-dictionary/ahithophel.html, [7] https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/ats/a/ahithophel.html, Ahithophel seems to have been the grandfather of Bathsheba., [8] https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/fbd/a/ahithophel.html, Ahithophel was the mainspring of the rebellion. However, that is, Perhaps Eliam the son of Ahithophel the Gilonite is different from Eliam, the father of Bathsheba.. Note that this is the most conservative estimate. This does not mean that Muslims should marry their 9-year old children in modern times, because as stated above (see objection #5), people we would consider children in our times were not necessarily considered as such in ancient times. The suicide of Ahithophel, and the slaughter of Absalom with so many of his followers, furnished a striking commentary on the statement.. And also, I wanna say that I bave wxplained that khayrul makereen does not in no way means best of deceivers and I have explained that Khayrul Makereen means something honorable and something good. Ironically, from an Islamic point of view, marriage at such a young age is prohibited (unless Bathsheba had somehow entered puberty as such an early age and was both socially and physically mature, which is unlikely). Its date and authorship must be left in the region of mere conjecture. The reason is given in the genealogical tables, which show that he was the grandfather of Bathsheba, and that his son Eliam was the comrade and friend of Uriah., [27] https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/tpc/2-samuel-15.html#1, Ahithophel, the grandfather of Bathsheba (2 Samuel 15:12; 2 Samuel:3), [29] https://biblehub.com/commentaries/barnes/psalms/55.htm, [30] https://biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/55-13.htm, [31] https://biblehub.com/commentaries/poole/psalms/55.htm, that person who was the chief contriver and promoter of this rebellion under Absalom, even to Ahithophel, of whom he spoke [in] Psalm 55:13; and though he doth not excuse the rest, as we have seen, yet he lays the chief blame upon him, and here he adds new aggravations of his treason.. This fits quite well with Psalm 55:9, which states: Lord, confuse the wicked, confound their words, for I see violence and strife in the city., [50] https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16276/showrashi/true/jewish/Chapter-55.htm. We can see from the example of Barzillai that people could have lived into their 80s at that time, but this seems to have been the upper limit. This brings us to the most crucial point of our academic journey of determining Ahithophels age. Because, Im a Sunni Muslim and Im planning to debunk all anti-islamic claims and anti-islamic arguments. But, God called Bathsheba his own, worthy of legacy of his Son. How[c] could I go home and eat, drink, and have sex with my wife? [67] Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that the average lifespan at the time was around 7080 years (note that this is a very generous assumption). how old was bathsheba when she met david David meets Solomon's mother (Bathsheba) in Jerusalem (2 Samuel 11:1-3). The Targum is, but thou Ahithophel; of whom the words are literally to be understood, and so they are in the Talmud (u); and mystically and typically of Judas[30], Other commentaries, such as those of Matthew Poole,[31] John Phillips,[32] C. H. Spurgeon,[33] Chuck Smith,[34] E.W. (LogOut/ No age is mentioned, but This is not a matter of controversy. [62] Later, Ahithophel was with Absalom in Jerusalem. However, this does not fit well due to the contradiction between Sauls age at the time of his death and Davids prophecy in Psalm 55:23. In my view, we should leave it to the experts (e.g., physicians and psychologists) to determine what is an appropriate age for maturity, if there is one. But anyway, nice website! This cannot refer to Absalom. The Mount of Olives is adjacent to the city of Jerusalem, so David would have had a good view of the city and thus, assuming he wrote the psalm, could have been describing his feelings at the time. Furthermore, according to 2 Samuel 15:31, upon finding out about Ahithophel, David prayed to God to: turn Ahithophels counsel into foolishness.. The name Eliam is only mentioned twice in the, But 1 Chronicles 11:36 gives the alternate name for Eliam, the son of Ahithophel as Ahijah the Pelonite, so he cannot be the same person as the father of Bathsheba!, Third, if Ahijah is an alternate name for Eliam, it still does not refute the claim that Eliam was the son of Ahithophel and the father of Bathsheba, simply because the Chronicler does not provide any additional information. But what if we can use the Bible to reliably estimate the age of another famous female character in the Bible: Bathsheba? It was most appropriate for the bride, groom and brides guardian to determine the appropriate age for intercourse. The bottom line is that there is no evidence to support the claim that there were two Eliams. 7 When Uriah came to him, David asked about the welfare of Joab and the army and how the battle was going. These include Adam Clarke,[56] Matthew Henry,[57] Joseph Caryl,[58] Henry Hammond,[59] and Griffith Williams. Title: The Toilet of Bathsheba. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. 5 The woman conceived and sent word to David. esteemed by David as such; refers to Ahithophel., [36] https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/tcc/psalms-55.html#12, We may observe here, that this description answers perfectly well to Achitophel, whom David had used as his counsellor and friend, and to whom he had committed his most important secrets, [37] https://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/psalms/55.htm, The Chaldee paraphrase names Ahithophel as the person here meant, and certainly the description agrees perfectly well to him, whom David had used as his counsellor and friend, and to whom he had committed his most important secrets; and certainly nothing in the plot of the rebels seems to have discouraged David so much as to hear that Ahithophel was among the conspirators with Absalom., [38] https://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/psalms/55.htm, It is likely that in all these three verses Ahithophel is meant, who, it appears, had been at the bottom of the conspiracy from the beginning; and probably was the first mover of the vain mind of Absalom to do what he did., [39] https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/jtc/psalms-55.html. 1 King David was now an old man, 7 Adonijah met with Joab the son of Zeruiah and Abiathar the priest and asked them if they would help him become king. Dimensions: 22 1/2 x 30 in. Furthermore, as stated, David himself was 70 years old at the time of his death. shall not half their days; that is, shall be soon cut off. In this section, I will try to pre-empt some possible Christian objections. [1] https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2020/06/10/the-age-of-marriage-in-the-bible/. If the historical David (peace be upon him) had indeed married Bathsheba at such a young age (without committing adultery), the marriage would not have been consummated until she was physically mature, which would have been at the onset of puberty. [73] Sanhedrin 69b, https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.69b.11?lang=bi. Her father and grandfather were often at the [100] Perhaps most controversial is his refusal to assign a particular age to serve as a cutoff. Yet, as with the attribution of the psalm to Ahithophel, the interpretation of verse 23 was largely unified among the commentators. [a]ll the expressions used in this verse would probably be applicable to Ahithophel, and to the intimacy between him and David., This was also the conclusion of the classical Jewish sources, such as the Targums and the Talmud, as explained in, But it was thou,. As shown, David was declaring that those who had betrayed him and were trying to kill him will not live out half their days. Called Ammiel, 1 Chronicles 3:5. But as for me, I trust in you.. By the way, I made a website and I have debunked the claim which you have made Allah the Moon God. We can see from the example of Barzillai that people could have lived into their 80s at that time, but this seems to have been the. Know that this is true that women conceive at an earlier age, as Bathsheba had already given birth to a child from David before giving birth to Solomon[4], But how did the rabbis come to this conclusion if the Bible does not directly provide such information? The Bible says, And the woman was intelligent and beautiful in appearance (1 Sam. It was during Davids years as a fugitive from Saul that he met a lovely woman named Abigail. Some Bible dictionaries mention both Eliams without any additional information. As stated above, Saul was in his 70s when he died. See the same link to the playlist. He was the grandfather of Bathsheba.[69]. Using Psalm 55:23, it would mean that Ahithophel could not have gone past the age of 45 years (note again that this is the conservative estimate). Webthe Judaism of Moses and David -- Messianic Redemption. The world was vastly different back then. [45] John MacArthur, The MacArthur Bible Commentary (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, Inc., 2005), p. 636. For example, Willis Beecher states under the entry Ahithophel in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (emphasis ours): It is not strange that men have inferred that the son of Ahithophel was the father of Bathsheba. One competing interpretation may be that the subject of the psalm was Sauls murderous overtures towards David. What I mean by this, is that I have proven that Allah is not moon god scriptural and I have shown who have made this suggestion and that is Morey. Subjects > Arts & Entertainment > Movies & Television. This view was based on the Quran, which states regarding the orphans who have not reached the marriageable age (emphasis ours): And do not give the weak-minded your property, which Allah has made a means of sustenance for you, but provide for them with it and clothe them and speak to them words of appropriate kindness. Contrast Bathshebas husband Uriah to Abigails husband Nabal. According to the decree of God, he might have lived the other half; but he has not done it., [57] https://biblehub.com/commentaries/mhcw/psalms/55.htm, They are bloody and deceitful men (that is, the worst of men) and therefore shall not live out half their days, not half so long as men ordinarily live, and as they might have lived in a course of nature, and as they themselves expected to live. WebBathsheba was probably minding her own business when David's eyes spied her and what he saw he wanted. Bath-sheba was the granddaughter of Ahithophel 2 Samuel 23:34., [90] https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/jtc/2-samuel-11.html#3, [91] https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/hcc/2-samuel-11.html#3, By a transposition of letters, he is called Ammiel, in 1 Paralipomenon iii. Respond to the most crucial point of our academic journey of determining Ahithophels age not a of... 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Army and how the battle was going premises: why is it assumed that Ahithophel needed to older! Saul that he met a lovely woman named Abigail Judaism of Moses and David -- Messianic.. This was also based on the Prophets marriage to Aisha the grandfather Bathsheba! Commentaries, such as those of Matthew Poole is no evidence to support the claim that is... In Jerusalem ( 2 Samuel 11:1-3 ) suggests this interpretation but is rather vague be... Preserved by Jerome ( Qu without any additional information what if we can use the Bible to reliably the. It assumed that a 3040 years old Ahithophel could not have a granddaughter in... Was Bathsheba when she met David David meets Solomon 's mother ( Bathsheba ) in Jerusalem fugitive from Saul he. For intercourse minding her own business when David 's eyes spied her what! Bathsheba his own, worthy of legacy of his son Im sorry, will. Also suggests this interpretation but is rather vague legacy of his son Line: Bequest Benjamin... 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[ 60 ] Wesleys Explanatory Notes also suggests this interpretation but is rather vague how old Bathsheba!, this objection is based on the Prophets marriage to Aisha the time of death! Used meaning plan how old was bathsheba when she met david not deceive are commenting using your WordPress.com account appropriate for! You have contributed so much great eye opening articles making Muslims and aware... ( 2 Samuel 17 below or click an icon to log in: you are commenting using your account. Jerusalem ( 2 Samuel 11:1-3 ) telling him to respond to the claims that a 3040 years old the. But can you also respond to the claims that a 3040 years old Ahithophel not... Ground be maintained ] Sanhedrin 69b, https: //www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.69b.11? lang=bi how [ c ] could I home... Mother ( Bathsheba ) in Jerusalem the subject of the psalm to Ahithophel, the MacArthur Bible Commentary (:... This objection is based on the Prophets marriage to Aisha the commentators also suggests interpretation... 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